Most Dominant Player Followup
Posted on June 22nd, 2007 by
First of all I just want to send a shout-out to Henry Abott; the writer of TrueHoop, who featured my Tim Duncan vs Shaquille O’Neal article in his daily edition of Thursday’s Bullets. In the last 24 hours, the article got over 4000 unique visitors, over 85 comments, and over 1000 votes on the poll at the bottom.
There were lots of insightful comments which I enjoyed reading through and just wanted to highlight a couple:
First off, marketablitity, personality and generation of TV ratings have nothing to do with who is a better basketball player. If the article was an attempt to discern whether TD or Shaq had more overall importance to a franchise then those aspects of the business side of basketball would be relevant but they have no bearing on what takes place on the court.
I think “dominance” is a misleading and poor term to describe actual worth, but if that’s measure you want to go by then clearly Shaq has been more dominant. Do you assign more value to Shaq’s brief, intense periods of dominance or TD’s consistent excellence? Clearly Shaq was unstoppable in his prime (2 different 3 yr stretches actually, first 3 yrs w/Orlando and then the LA title yrs w/Kobe) but by the time he retires I believe TD will have been, barring any unforeseen major injury, better for longer and thus more valuable. I also think it’s much more likely that TD will win at least one more title, if not more, and thus wind up with more rings than Shaq.
One final thing to consider: their disparity in scoring average becomes much less in the playoffs. Shaq drops down to 25.5 pts/gm while Duncan increases to 23.8. Not that that sways the argument either way, but I do think it’s an indication that TD could score more during the regular season if he felt like it was needed.
I enjoyed this article. I do not agree with all of it, but for the most part you make good points. The last category, however, ought to be re-thought. “Team Value” and league marketability are two different things. For example, sure, Timmy draws low ratings, but that comes in the NBA finals, where AS A TEAM, the Spurs are benefitting GREATLY from Timmy being who he is. Maybe sections of the NBA aren’t, but the Spurs (as a business) are still sitting pretty. Duncan hands-down wins this category (best winning percentage in ALL of sports from a lottery team).
I think in the general tone of this article that most dominant refers to Shaq. The best comment here was the guy who said that Tim is younger and at the end of his career we will pick him. I agree with that also. Remember, Shaq went to the Finals 6 times as well…if you look at his whole career he is clearly more dominant at this point. He played against Robinson and Hakeem in their primes.
heres an interesting stat y’all might wanna consider in this debate…..How many players have Shaq and TD force into retirement????
Shaq - 2: Rik Smits (2000) and Arvydas Sabonis (2001)
TD - 0Winner: Shaq
You can argue different points about this, but I think it’s important to remember that Shaq at his peak (98-2002) was arguably on par with Jordan, Bird and Magic as belonging in the top tier of ballplayers over the last 30 years. If you haven’t taken a good close look at his stats lately, just consider for a moment his 99-00 season:
29.7 ppg, 13.6 rebounds per game, 3.8 assists per game, and in the neighborhood of 3 blocks per game.
That’s insane. You know how far back you have to go to find a season like that? Moses Malone in 81-82 was the last guy to outdue Shaq in both rebounds and points for a single season (though I could be wrong, this was just a quick search). And before that you have to go back to Kareem in the ’70’s. In other words, Shaq had a once-in-a-generation season in 2000. And that year was no fluke, as he put together a run of 10 years straight where he was over 26 and 10. How many guys in the post-Olajuwon/Robinson/Malone era consistently spring for 26 and 10 season after season? Right. No one. Not even Duncan And people saying Shaq’s not a winner? Seriously? 4 titles doesn’t make the guy a winner? The Lakers were unbeatable during the three-peat years, despite the fact that a) the locker room chemistry was toxic and b) they only had two players who could create shots for themselves. Take Shaq off of those Laker teams, and you’ve got Kobe and a bunch of role players: In other words, a team that’s gonna struggle to get to .500 (just like LA today). Any team with peak-Shaq had an outside shot at a title. And any guy who’s the alpha dog on a 3-peat team has got to be considered a winner.
TD has accomplished a hell of a lot, and I love and respect the way he plays the game, and you could in fact argue that he’s a better teammate and maybe even a more complete player. And of course Timmy’s got a lot more left in his tank at this point. But we’ve got to give credit where credit is due, and we can’t confuse a great basketball mind with shear overwhelming dominance. Shaq all the way.
That 3-1 head to head stuff is garbage. Let’s break it down:
1999: Duncan totally embarrassed Shaq, over and over, made him look fat and slow, not to mention really stupid for the retarded defense in clinching play of Game 2. Scored 23 of first 25 points of pivotal Game 3 in LA. Last game ever played in the Forum was Spurs blowing LA out by double digits.
2000: Spurs probably would have repeated, they blew out the Lakers twice in later stages of regular season, but Duncan got injured in playoff series vs Suns. Lakers lucked out by playing a choking Blazers team that gave away a 15 point lead in 4th quarter of Game 7… or we’re not talking about a “3 peat” maybe not even a “2 peat.”
2001: Lakers now much more impressive as a team sweep Spurs. In game 2, Duncan scores 40 but no one else on team scores more than like 15. Lakers focus on shutting Duncan down and other guys can’t score. Demoralized, Duncan performs poorly in games 3&4 in LA. Kobe goes wild, nobody can guard him.
2002: Again, Spurs lose to LA in round 2, 4-1 I think. Shaq and Kobe both play out of minds. Tony Parker is a rookie and there’s no Manu. Spurs “big” acquisition, Derek Anderson, who was supposed to match up with Kobe (what a joke), gets injured in the round before Lakers series. Doesn’t matter - Lakers would have killed them anyway.
2003: Spurs wipe Lakers out, 4-2, en route to title, by running them out of their own gym in clinching game. As in 1999, Shaq is slow, often out of position, and looks out of shape. This after Shaq and “Zen master” Phil said in media that Spurs were afraid to play Lakers.
2004: In pivotal Game 5, with series tied 2-2, final seconds, Duncan hits ridiculous fadeaway shot at top of key in Shaq’s face to put Spurs up one. Then D-Flopper hits even more ridiculous shot to win, Lakers close it out at home in Game 6, go on to get embarrassed by Detroit.
2005: We’re all cheated out of a Heat-Spurs final by pretenders from Dallas. That woudl have been a hell of a series, maybe gone 7. Heat go on to win much deserved victory, led by D-Wade and a great team effort. Shaq plays well but is far from “dominant.”
Anyone who thinks Shaq personally dominated Duncan over the years didnt’ actually watch the games and needs to put down the pipe. They hardly ever guarded each other head to head. Each dominated the other at different times in their careers. And Shaq had Kobe, who we all know is the most dominating perimeter player in the game over the last few years.
Duncan has never been swept and embarrassed in the Finals. He hasn’t had soap opera girly fights with his teammates or coaches. He doesn’t pout about imagined petty insults and he takes winning and losing both like a man and not a little boy. That’s why anyone with an IQ over 50 respects him more than Shaq.
ok, to all the shaq haters, just watch film of when Shaq and Duncan played against each other in their primes, for Shaq at least, since Duncan is still in his prime. Shaq has dominated Duncan in games. Duncan cant do anything when Shaq guards him, all he does is pass. On the other hand Duncan gets the same treatment as anybody else that guards Shaq. And why isnt Duncan playing the center position? cause thats Shaq’s position and Duncan doesnt want any part of that. He cant guard Shaq, and we all know it.
Alot of people hate on Shaq cause they think all he is is power, but he isnt just power. he has footwork, agility, quickness, and can pass the ball. Try and find another really big man in the world that can move like him. We will probably never see another player like Shaq, ever.When Shaq is on the floor he changes everything, he has an overwhelming presence. It causes the other team to play completely different. He impacts the game like nobody since Wilt. And the point about the referrees, he gets maybe half the foul calls. He really should be going to the line about 40 times a game the way they hack him.
During all those years when the Lakers were the most feared team in the league, it was because of Shaq. He might not have had his name on the “mvp” trophy but clearly he was the true MVP. The league likes to pass around the MVP title anyhow.
Duncan is a great player, he does everything right, deserves the 4 titles and MVP awards but in regards to dominating on the court, there is no contest.
Very tough decision, obviously. Especially when your taking into account that the question is ‘The most dominant player for the last decade’. The most dominant doesn’t neccessarily means ‘The Best player for the last decade’.
Considering that, I would take Shaq for the most dominant player (largely just because of is unnatural strength and unique power), but Tim Duncan for the best player (where not only personal stats, but also titles, winning percentage, all-nba selections, mvp honours and influnce on your team must be taken into account.
There is one point tough, I really miss in this otherwise very good article: the accomplishments of Shaq and Duncan in relation to their age/stage of carrer.
Shaq was throughout his career a true force, always being at least one of the 10 best players every season. Nevertheless, he peaked as a superstar (in terms of leading his team to a championship or a serious! chance of winning it all) only for 3 seasons (2000-2002 and 2006), in his 7th to 9th and 13th season. In 1995 and 2004 I don’t think Shaq Teams had a real shot at the title) And one thing is for sure, he will never ever be that good and dominant again and is quite questionable, if he will win another title before retiring.
Tim Duncan on the other hand has done that in 1999, 2003, 2005 and 2007 (I know Tony Parker was phenomenal and won MVP honours in 2007, but just read Marc Stein recent article about ‘Why TD is the Finals MVP in 2007′. I completely agree with that.) That is in his 2nd, 5th, 7th and 9th season. And just imagine, what would have been possible:
If San Antonio had finish its games in 2002 properly (leading by 4 after 3 quarters in game 1, leading by 10 after 3 quarters in game 4 and tied with 2min to play in game 5). And we all know that it was Duncans supporting cast that sucked badly. TD played an amazing series),
If there hadn’t been this improbable shot by Derek Fisher (I still don’t believe that it’s possible, to catch, turn and release the ball in 0.3s!) in game 5 (with the series tied at 2) in 2004
If the play that has to be considered among ‘The most dumbest moves/actions in NBA history’ hadn’t happend. Manu’s (I love this guy, but this was just insane) foul on Dirk Nowitzki with 20sec left and Spurs leading by 3 in Game 7 of the semi finals in 2006
I’m sure that San Antonio would have had a very good chance to at least win 1 more championship, especially last year.
And besides that do you think Tim Duncan is able to play on the same level, he has played so far, for the next 2 or 3 seasons? Well, me too. So it’s quite probable that he will get 1 more trophy before retiring.
I think, at least then should end the talk about ‘The best player for the last decade’. Only one name can be said: Tim Duncan
As you can see there are a lot of disagreements and differences of opinion, but the fact remains that both Tim Duncan and Shaquille O’Neal will be going to the hall of fame after they retire. Combined they have led their respective teams to 8 championships in the last decade, a very impressive feat considering how much talent is in the NBA right now.
It will be interesting to see how what kind of impact they make in the 2007-2008 season after Shaq has had injury problems all year long, and Tim Duncan has led the Spurs to another title run. So until then, if you haven’t already make sure to drop by the article, leave your two cents, and don’t forget to subscribe to my RSS feed.
